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Post by luciusstorm on Oct 22, 2024 12:37:03 GMT
OK, let me start out by saying that this thread has the almost inevitable possibility of touching on fraught topics like politics and religion... so I would ask everyone (especially me) to remember the forum rules...
As long as we treat everyone as human beings worthy of life and dignity, I believe we can disagree about things and still have a good discussion.
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One of the things that we can do as writers is hold up a mirror to the world. Through fiction... yes, even SimLit with cartoonish characters with silly names... we can explore sometimes difficult, real world topics. In fact, cartoonish characters with silly names are often great ways of exploring these difficult topics, using humor and satire to both soft the blow and highlight absurdities.
In my Wyrd Tales stories, I have touched on some issues, including teen suicide and sexual abuse, and I hope I have done so in ways that are both respectful and engaging.
I've been considering taking a foray into political commentary, but I've not sold myself on the idea yet. I frankly worry that if I bring too much "real world politics" into my story, the reality will stress me out too much to make writing it be appealing to me. Also, I'm not sure how my readers would react.
So, how do others feel about this? How much social commentary to do you include in your storytelling, deliberately or unconsciously? Are there topics you avoid, either as a writer or a reader? Are there topics near to your heart that you are longing to explore or see explored?
I'd love to hear your thoughts.
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Post by mightysprite on Oct 22, 2024 13:29:56 GMT
Personally, as a reader, there are some political points of view that authors can take that can cause me to be put off and not want to read the story.
For example: stories that endorse homophobic or transphobic violence, or use racial or ethnic or LGBT stereotypes for laughs.
Or if it seems like the writer is going into a political topic because they feel like they're supposed to, or they're virtue-signaling or something. I assume it's coming from a good-hearted place but again it just makes me less interested as a reader.
But, creativity is a wonderful way to explore topics that could otherwise be difficult. I think as long as a writer is making a good-faith effort to understand the reality that inspires their story, and genuinely exploring topics that matter to them, that's the best way.
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Caerfinon
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Post by Caerfinon on Oct 22, 2024 13:57:24 GMT
I tend to focus my work on day to day observational situations. My "bad" guys tend to be disagreeable social characters but I never identify their higher motives with any real life theme. I avoid politics in my SimLit, because sims is a place where I escape from weighty world affairs to concentrate on what I find funny in popular culture and literature. Human, Canine, Feline, and Equine experiences (not to mention an every growing list of Occults) are all the canvas for my polite explorations of tropes, puns, double entendres, jests and bon mots. After all, I am Canadian eh?  |
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Post by queenofmyownfantasy on Oct 22, 2024 14:12:33 GMT
A lot of people play the sims in a very sunshine and rainbows way. Two sims of about the same age give or take a couple of days fall in love, marry, maaaybe some hard to get on the way there but nothing too big, they get like 10 babies. They take pictures; caption it and put it on tumblr. Voila, " story. " I...Do...Not. I like drama for the sake of drama, and if my sims do something problematic autonomously - flirting with their 9 years older brother in law while they're freshly a YA, for example, I only ever meant them to be friends but the moment she was an adult I had to keep my eye on them all the time ( See my family tree, It's visible in my family tree )- I am more likely to run with with it than skew away from it. There are of course some topics that I have touched in the past (I was already writing simlit when I was like 14, and was easily influenced by others who ok'd those things much more in their sims families and when I thought of the implications way, way less) and won't dare to touch now, as I have even had people try to cancel me in other places like tumblr for touching upon them.
TW: icky relationships
I had a legacy family (discontinued in 2017) which I would write dramatized stories about similar to my current style when I was 15 in which a second cousin marriage happened - ok, a bit icky but legal in most places - but then their child was very groomed by her uncle in her mid-teens, after meeting him (he was a childish mean spirited kleptomaniac who was off selling stolen cars or something most of her childhood, she didn't know him). TBF, this line of sims were purple-colored mersims from Dragon Valley, so one could argue they're Targaryen inspired... Even then, I recognized in the story as this being problematic and the uncle was excommunicated from his family, but the fact that I did it (and the misunderstanding that I might do it again, even though I won't) and that in the flow of conversations I forgot to put TW's when I talked about this family - it's my longest played family so me talking about them is bound to happen - was enough for a gang of popular TS3 tumblrs to try and cancel me, bullying others into blocking me even.
Currently I have a storylines that include cloning, gender identity, homophobia (from an antagonist), insanity, mental child abuse, homelessness and more, as well as casual discrimination off/prejudice towards supernatural sims (I like them to be special and rare, and people don't like what's special and rare very often) I fully understand it's not everyone's cup of tea, but I see simlit as a way to explore other worlds, relationships and so on. And there's no story without drama. I try to handle things in a careful manner - characters who do something bad, get their comeuppance at some point, and in the end it is happily ever after still, but it can get pretty complicated, with very morally grey characters. With emphasis on characters, they don't say anything about myself. Of course, for people who want a sims game to be nothing but sunshine and rainbows, this can be seen as problematic no matter what and must mean I am the worst person ever /s |
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Caerfinon
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Post by Caerfinon on Oct 22, 2024 14:25:55 GMT
must mean I am the worst person ever Or you're a talented writer exploring the full range of the 256 shades of Greyscale that is the human experience.   |
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Post by luciusstorm on Oct 22, 2024 15:38:46 GMT
mightysprite, ok, honest question... What is "virtue signaling?" I have heard this term before, but I do not understand what it means.
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Zeph
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Post by Zeph on Oct 22, 2024 16:42:41 GMT
In storytelling in general, I tend to use it to explore upsetting things I've endured in my life. As an LGBT+, neurodivergent person, it's a lot. I'm a little hesitant to do it in a game as cartoony and lighthearted as The Sims, but maybe I'll change my mind one day. I've definitely not shied away from heavy topics anywhere else... well, ever.
Edit: Thinking on it now... I actually have written some darker topics in my SimLit. On one I lost the file for, I explored how horrific the hundred baby challenge really is when you think of it for more than two seconds (since the first gen's spouse was a 100 baby sim), and explored some bigotry too since my protagonist was an alien.
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Post by arieltriffic on Oct 22, 2024 19:01:20 GMT
mightysprite , ok, honest question... What is "virtue signaling?" I have heard this term before, but I do not understand what it means. Hmm, I always think of "virtue signaling" as something happening in the story that may work for the modern age, but is unrealistic for the characters or the setting. For example, say you have a story set in Puritan New England. The pastor is pro-witch (despite witchcraft being against the religious tenants of the group), the townsfolk are anti-witch, and the pastor gets moral brownie points from the author for being open-minded. The protagonist has a flimsy reason for having this viewpoint that does not hold up to basic scrutiny. Like, for example, he used to get cookies from a witch, and she didn't try to put him in an oven. Hmm, I think I may have Hansel and Gretel still on my brain. Sorry about that!  It can also manifest in what is called "a paper tiger." An example of a paper tiger would be an exaggeratedly bigoted person. He's not super bigoted for comic effect, i.e., to make a point about how ridiculous his views really are. It's done so that the protagonist looks better in comparison. In other words, virtue signaling is lazy writing. Usually, there is a way to portray what you would like about a situation that makes sense within the context of the time/place/characters involved. I think shortcuts are something any of us could be guilty of. As writers, I think it is important not to short-change the other side when it comes to politics. Try to see the goodness of the other side without ignoring the evils. That is what I think. |
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Post by HermioneSims on Oct 22, 2024 19:57:49 GMT
Let's see...
After reading the discussion, I think that for answering I need to split the answer in two parts:
1) Politics, culture, religion, and other stuff happening on a community level:
In writing, I see elements like those are parts of the story setting, or in other words of the framework around your characters. As such, they're definitively an important part of any story, the kind of details that make it feel more real. Yet, I perfectly see how writing about them can be scary (I'm very scared by this too), it's so easy to make a mistake and offend a ton of readers! And I also tend to think that it's almost impossible not to offend anyone when addressing these stuff (scared level +5).
My stories up to now ended up having quite a lot of descriptions about politics & co, but it's mostly because I only write fantasy or Sci-Fi stories and so I need to make up fictional political settings and how they reflect on the fictional society (or, at least, I think my stories need these elements). Often the plot lines are inspired by real-world events and situations, but so that now they apply to a group of aliens and the solutions involve teleportation & co I'm less afraid readers may take it personally and be offended. If I was writing realistic stories instead, I would probably stay away from real-world politics & co.
2) Topics affecting the story on a household/single sim level:
this is way harder for me, because I empathize with with the character's sufferings and get depressed too. There are bad things happening in my stories, but very often it's about external conflicts more than personal ones, and even when it's personal it's more likely to happen to the sims around my protagonists (so the story line turns into helping their friends/lovers), or be a part of the characters backstories that they have to solve. Also in these cases, I'm always scared to make mistakes that can upset the readers who may have really experiences what I'm trying to write, so when I notice I'm about to face a difficult topic I enter my reseach-mode and look for details.
I also don't feel like I would be able to tell the story of a character spiraling down unmoral, abusive or criminal behaviors, and also focusing a big part of a story on the victims' side of the story would be very tough for me.
As a general note, I tend to think that it's actually important to address delicate topics when writing, it's just very hard to do it well (in particular when addressing topics or situations we're not directly involved with). I also think that, willing or not, our opinions on the topics we address when writing are quite easy to spot in between the lines, no matter how different from us the character we're writing is.
And, at the end of the day, I think that SimLit for us is a hobby and it's supposed to be fun, so if addressing certain topics would turn into a struggle it's okay for us to focus on something else, and go back to the goofy sims.
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Post by EvilBnuuy on Oct 23, 2024 3:12:39 GMT
Brilliant (and brave) question! I think this is the best place to ask it though. I'll be using spoiler tags to keep the post trim. Warning that my post will bring up various sensitive topics as to be expected. In terms of how much real-world politics is too much, it's going to wildly depend and this is the problem. A lot of people just want an escapist experience with this game and the stories, others will regard any slight leaning into such things as 'too much' so it's hard to balance. I say go with what feels right, but that's not good advice, sorry. What I would say though, is you might have to think about yourself what topics you think you can tolerate writing about without it affecting you too much or genuinely upsetting you. Which that said, always remember it's fine to take breaks with creative projects. < 3 How much social commentary to do you include in your storytelling, deliberately or unconsciously?Consciously - Quite a lot. Most of it is because of the nature of the story itself being about the witch-hunts, and also certain aspects of the rough time period such as the power of the church and changing opinions on it which is reflected through the Peteran and Jacoban religions I plucked from The Sims Medieval games. I was very scared to write about the religious aspects, but I did it anyway because avoiding religion in a time period so heavily affected by it just didn't make sense.
My story is generally a lot more progressive than it would have been IRL, but I don't really want to write a story that's entirely about prejudice all the way through- and the thing is that there will always be good people throughout history and in the future, even in unexpected places, something I found out even more about doing research for the story. History seems largely focused on the nastier parts a lot of the time, and for good reason most of the time - but there will always be people who are supportive of a person, group, or cause that most people despised and wanted banished or worse. Sometimes the people that come out in support of something can also be from really surprising places. That's why you have characters who aren't bothered about the trans character, or the autistic character, men who genuinely love their wives and would never mistreat them, or the ones who actually have no qualm with the witches at all and don't believe all the lies spread about them. Some folk might not have the right words, or any words at all, but there'll always be people on your side, somewhere in the world. I don't see why that should change for people who existed years ago.
Most of the prejudice in my stories is only really prevalent in the upper classes, the types who care more about image, scandals, and tradition... or the people who suck up to them. The working classes, and those already ostracised like the witches, they just don't really care. Another thing in this story though is a lot of people are dealing with things that currently have no definition (certain mental illnesses or neurodivergence description, or word to describe them, so it makes things even more difficult for them. There's also the dealings with things far more common back then than it is now - things like losing children to illness, for example.
Subconsciously - quite a lot. Thing is, it's hard to avoid being 'too political' when a major part of your life is governed by the said 'too political' stuff. I won't go too much into it because IDK about forum rules and such, but to put it short, when you know prejudice all too well, it's easy for it to end up in your writing without any intention. When every headline, every social media post is about why people like you shouldn't exist, or are lying, or they spread lies to turn people against folk like you? It makes writing about a witch-hunt not so difficult. It's fine to write light-hearted Utopian stuff, and I don't really agree with people who say everything has to have some deeper level of meaning - but I've tried lighthearted and I simply cannot do it. : P I don't really care if people consider it 'agenda-pushing' or whatever, they can curate their own experience and leave the webpage if it's not to their tastes. I also think that it's fine for people to not tackle every single issue in a story, for multiple reasons. Some things are easier to screw up, some things will feel harder to write authentically than others. Are there topics you avoid, either as a writer or a reader? Are there topics near to your heart that you are longing to explore or see explored?I have things I sometimes skip or have to force myself through that I won't discuss, mostly things that happened to close people in the past that I don't fancy revisiting. But if it's handled well I'll take my time with it or just tell the author I skipped that part. As a writer, there are topics I've been avoiding, some of those I will have to write very soon. I've changed some aspects of my story because of current events at the time and it feeling in poor taste to include something I deemed too similar to it to be in the story, but this upcoming event is so crucial to the plot that I can't not write it or dance around it. But I need to stop worrying and just write the darned thing : P
General other notes that are more in-line with everyone else's discussion: HermioneSims I will always enjoy the way you cover the political aspects of the story for a lot of reasons, the complexities that you cover and how we see it from every corner, Sixamians, Sixamians who've lived on Earth, humans, and humans aren't always anti-Sixamian and vice-versa, and both humans and Sixamians don't always act in the best interests of their own kind as well as the 'other'. arieltriffic Despite my story being more progressive than the era it is set in, I have had to ditch some ideas for them feeling a bit too firmly-grounded in this era. A lot of ideas I've scrapped are because they don't really make sense in the story's time period as well as the general wants and attitudes of the people, and a lot of the ditched ideas sound more like 40-page Twitter discourse than they do something that would likely come up in the story itself.  This next part isn't related to anything anyone else has said, and is just a ramble-
I think fiction allows that kind of 'space' to explore such things that we wouldn't necessarily want to explore as much in real life, and some of those things might be reasons as to why some people come to the unbelievable conclusions they come to. IRL, marginalised folk don't need to spend all day trying to understand why people want them ostracised and worse. If someone has their foot on your throat, you're probably going to be trying to push it off, not lie down asphyxiating wondering whether or not your assailant had bad parents or something. But with fiction it's a level of semi-comfortable distance with which to deal with subjects that you probably wouldn't want to deal with in real life. It gives you a chance to write from POVs that don't match your own. It's almost like...would you rather read about a fictional character with very questionable beliefs or scroll the social media pages of your uncle you try to distance yourself from? In my own story, it's shown with different characters why people support the witch-hunts, for all sorts of different reasons. But it's not necessarily in a way that forces the reader to feel sympathy, and it's not necessarily in a way that makes you accept that, well, it's fine if there's a reason. You don't have to feel bad for them or understand them, but it puts into perspective how people get wrapped up in dangerous thought processes. There's also the historical context as well, for example the Jacoban High Shepherd admitting he came to understand the value of women far too late, but Jacoban culture is very patriarchal, so you can see how he got into that thought process to begin with. I think part of the reason people worry about tackling hard topics in SimLit is in part worrying about causing upset - partially because no decent person wants to upset somebody else like that, and also because it's VERY quick for people to jump to a conclusion on the matter. There are always going to be people who will assume you wrote X wrong because it didn't match their experience to a T, and a lot of folk don't have that sort of middle-evaluation period and just assume the worst of you. I think another half of it is because it's a fairly lighthearted game and a lot of stories / challenges stick within the realm of the mood of the game, which is absolutely fine and arguably a lot easier as well. queenofmyownfantasy And this happened when you were 15 you said? People on the Internet are really obsessed with harassing teenagers, aren't they? I'm sorry you had to deal with that. No amount of content warnings or acknowledgement of potential problematic scenes will get people to curate their own experience annoyingly. I hope now you're more in-tune with what you're writing, and hopelessly less fearful of dealing with such topics. |
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Post by queenofmyownfantasy on Oct 23, 2024 7:22:58 GMT
EvilBnuuyNo, this happened very recently. They tried to cancel me for something I did 8 years ago. I talked about that story/family on discord, a very fast-paced environment, which caused me to forgot TW's. I was adding them the moment i figured people are uncomfortable but it was too late. They banned me ( i saw the server disappear while typing tw's) and then screenshotted everything and put it publicly on tumblr with "this person is a creep, block her" and also bullied others into blocking me. People are insane.
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Post by MonaSolstraale on Oct 23, 2024 10:03:38 GMT
I would say that part of what set me off writing Simlit is that there are topics from my own life or those closest to me that I somehow wanted to process via fiction.
So it will probably be a reflection of something socially realistic, without my Simlit having to be read as a personal biography.
The skeleton of the fiction is controlled by the game drive in my game. In between there are passages I have chosen in advance as subjects I want to describe. I have dealt with topics such as alcoholism, childlessness, depression, etc. but never with the aim of creating drama for the sake of drama, but with the aim of showing human development or cognitive processes. It interests me how one maintains the will to live and fight despite adversity.
It is important to me to hold on to hope and faith in life and the humanly possible in a world where we are bombarded daily with the fact that we are looking forward to a dystopian future. I wish our media would focus more on the progress that has been made after all. I think as long as I keep these views on a private story block, it is up to the individual whether they want to read the content.
NB: A question of understanding. What does TW stand for? (I'm sorry I have a bit of difficulty deciphering abbreviations, as I don't speak English in everyday life)
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Post by arieltriffic on Oct 23, 2024 10:11:55 GMT
EvilBnuuy I think there's a lot more leeway in a fantasy setting, to be fair. Also, I hope you didn't take what I wrote as personal in any way. From what I've seen of Divided (and I need to get back to reading it), the characters have good reasons for any unorthodox views they hold. Incoming: Rant about mystery TV shows. I was mainly thinking of some of the BBC shows I've seen recently. Sadly, I find Father Brown way too dogmatic in unrealistic ways - he acts in ways that are not in character with the G.K. Chesterton detective I love. I continued to watch because I love period pieces - and I'm a bit of a mystery nerd. I do not like when shows say, "You are not guilty for doing xyz because your life was really hard." There are lots of people in the same situation who don't commit crimes.
The spinoff, Sister Boniface, handles social commentary much better (especially in series 2 and 3). The characters are not prejudiced and also realistic, if that makes sense. You get the feeling that the cast genuinely like each other. And when the culprit is caught? If the culprit is a minority, they are given compassion for their hardships, but are not excused for their crimes. Oh! Also, Sister Boniface allows for every character to have both flaws and virtues. I think sometimes writers are afraid of writing realistic people because they think that it makes their characters less likeable. But flaws allow people to be more relatable - and I love nothing better than to see character growth. queenofmyownfantasy That is really unfortunate. That is one of the reasons I stepped away from SimLit for four years; people can be really toxic.
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Post by EvilBnuuy on Oct 23, 2024 10:34:25 GMT
Ariel and Mona - I will respond to you properly later when I am awake!
Ariel - don’t worry, I know you didn’t mean it about me!
Mona - TW is short for ‘trigger warning’, and it’s usually a warning on a piece of art or writing which warns of content which might cause some sort of…well, it ranges from things that might cause some sort of trauma response or psychological harm, but some people use the term to just mean ‘this topic might make you feel uncomfortable’.
I always label mine as Content Warnings instead, that way I can warn for more important things as well as just general uncomfortable points, phobias and such.
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Post by kelloggjkellogg on Oct 23, 2024 13:33:06 GMT
I write about characters, fictional people. I don't write manifestos.
That's my preamble. I was asked last year whether I would include more social commentary about the 1960s in Sim 66 and go into civil rights, prejudice, war, protests and the drop out counter culture and those things are there but they're not the focus. They tend to get mentioned in passing or spotlighted if it applies in particular to one of the characters but for the most part I don't want to write a kind of Ken Loach or latter era Jean-Luc Godard political piece.
When I watch films, TV and contemporary documentaries about the Sixties (I studied a lot about the era as part of my history degree) the thing that stands out is that people spent most of their time dealing with problems and life right in front of them instead of being a political being 24/7. Jobs, relationships, curveballs and everyday life can be dramatic enough without pausing the story to delve into a political topic. This is where I find most of my inspiration from and what I concentrate on in the story.
In my own life I know few people who will jump to talking about politics all the time and those that do I generally find tedious company where they're constantly either looking for approval from others who share their views or else are trying to score points off those who don't. They also throw political points out there into their social world so they can divide people into "us" and "them". Those people might find a way into my story as one dimensional peripheral characters but not main players.
I've done things in my Sim 66 handbook (my personal reference guide to the story to help with continuity) like list the characters' political affiliations (if they have any) or list what their opinion is about the issues of the day but that's just a small part of who each of these people are.
The intention with Sim 66 is to cover the period 1966-1970 so things will change as the politics of the decade heat up but it's a gradual change. In 1966 Democrats and Republicans socialised a lot more with each other than they do today, they agreed on broad points and it was unusual to have irreconcilable political viewpoints that fracture families and communities...unless one was a radical that hated all mainstream institutions and discourse.
I'm not interested in writing characters who are only their politics or who base their personality entirely on them. I also don't want to write characters who are black or gay or trans but don't have a personality and a story that does not involve their race, sexuality or gender. They've got to be able to stand on their own two feet in the story as individuals.
Sometimes I have to detach myself from the worldview of the 2020s and think like people did back in the Sixties. I can use slang that was in common use back then that would get me banned on social media by the T&C Bots. Some slang was not considered offensive but it is now but I think my readership know enough to know I write in context so I've had no complaints if I use the terms "coloured", "chick" or "bird". Likewise the common terminology in use today wasn't the same as back then. It wasn't called "racism", it was termed "racialism" or "racial prejudice". Likewise misogyny wasn't the commonly used word for sex discrimination: It was called sex discrimination or male chauvinism. I try not to project either my own politics or current day politics on to my depiction of the Sixties in my story. I believe that would take the reader out of the story and it's more engaging if readers come across authentic speech or idioms and buy into things.
I have touched on racism with my two main black characters but in a way less is more: By only having them subjected to racism on occasion makes it stand out more. It's using shock tactics in an effective way. I haven't really gone into gay and lesbian relations and when I have it's been with supporting characters because, as I said, I don't want that to be the only memorable thing about those characters. Trans...well, in a way I'm covering that in more depth but in a way that is in keeping with the times. I have a main character who is a crossdresser but that doesn't define the character, it's the dichotomy of his life as a staunch reactionary and yet he has this other side to him...or is it her? That duality provides an interesting character and story dynamic in my opinion.
I'm a big fan of original series Star Trek because it managed to weave in a social message into an action TV show plot. It was always the plot and the characters first on that show. It also covered issues in a way that enabled liberals and conservatives to both enjoy the show. To some extent early Dr Who did much the same thing. I feel cold towards the descendants of those shows as I feel the story stops to give me a lecture at the expense of the plot, action and characters.
Personally I'm not a radical one way or the other so you won't find me putting flags and symbols next to my social media handles nor reblogging controversial political messages. Any political points will be made by characters and in keeping with their character and personality and they will be appropriate for the time the story is set in. I understand Sims 4 fans tend to skewer to the Left (and sometimes radical Left) but I want my writing to be accessible to people of many different political leanings. Conservatives and Liberals are welcome at my table.
One thing I've done is to not rely on default game AI demographics. Ever since I installed Island Living the game has been auto-generating blonde haired, dark skinned Hawaiians more than any other demographic. I've done some research into the actual demographics of the United States in the late sixties and have altered the NPCs to reflect real life. I've also altered body shapes as people back then were, on the whole, thinner than today. The only unrealistic thing in the background I've created is I don't feature smoking. About 3/4 of adults smoked back then but I don't want to download the mod that allows for that in the game so it's a concession to fantasy I've made.
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